Healthcare Legislation Ruins Christmas!

[Lehman]

The majority of america is liberal

I can't prove this, but I would say a majority of Americans are actually moderate. Speaking only for myself, I tilt left on most issues, but right on some (and not extremely far either way). The problem with both sides of the political spectrum is not only how far they lean, but how loud they yowl. I think most of us want some common sense answers to America's problems and, as we all know, extremism is rarely, if ever, a common sense approach.

[Lehman]

Lastly, I still don't see I significant problem with the healthcare system

Then think about it this way--imagine going to a grocery store. All of the items are on the shelves, but NONE of the prices are marked. You fill your basket with goodies, then hand them over to a second person, who has them run through the register. The second person adds a certain amount to each good before running it through. At the end of the process, you get your basket, along with your bill. That's in essence what our current system is: you go in for services, for which you have no real idea of price. You can shop for insurance carriers, but you can't shop for actual services, because the carriers middleman EVERYTHING. "Insurance" should be used for help in catatrophic situations. Think about your car insurance. You don't use it to get a tune up or oil change (i.e., "Regular Check-Ups"). You use it when the damned thing is ni a wreeck (i.e., "Major Surgery"). Is there ANY real reason we can't attack health care on a similar basis? The way things are set up now, there's no motivation for health care providers to produce goods at competitive prices. Surely some combination of the free market and actual insurance (used as insurance is supposed to be used) would work better than what we have now (or at least more fairly). The way it is now, I'm forking over a couple hundred every month to pay for my one doctor's office visit each year. The sad thing is, the money I'm spending is going to line the pockets of those who profit off of others' misfortunes.

[Mirnus]

//Britain, idk, should I answer Mirnus's reply? Seems kinda long and depressing....all i got outta it, again, was "blah blah blah your a stupid conservative"//

Maybe instead of strawmanning the entire post and saying that all I did was call you a stupid conservative is complete and utter intellectual dishonesty. Read it. Don’t skim it like a moron.

//You know what Mirnus? Idk half the crap I tell you, i just say it because your so darn funny to piss off.//

So you’re a troll and an idiot. If you’re going to engage in a conversation with me, I would highly suggest drawing a line between being a twit and being a debater.

//I get it, I'm conservative your a libby.//

No, to me you are a libertarian who knows nothing of what she talks about. You think there’s nothing wrong with the current medical system….honestly, how are we not supposed to think you’re out of your mind?

//Just tell me where you got "one sixth of our country is uninsured" from.//

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www ... 14227.html

“The number of people with health insurance increased from 253.4 million in 2007 to 255.1 million in 2008. The number of people without health insurance coverage rose from 45.7 million in 2007 to 46.3 million in 2008.”

That’s over 15%. 1/6 would be around 16.6%.
They don’t have 2009 statistics out in the open yet, however as far I can safely assume, with the increase unemployment rate and collapse of the market, many more have become uninsured.

//Now, covering people with our tax money on some questionable grounds are iffy. By questionable grounds I mean: is the spending going to hurt our federal reserve and our economy as a whole? Are people going to pay an abortion tax against their will? ( I consider that wrong.) //

Is that your whole damn argument? You aren’t in favor of women getting an operation done to remove a blob of cells inside them that could become a baby so you don’t want to support the entirety of the reformation of the medical system? That’s all you seem to talk about in this post.
Like Britain said about funding a war you don’t support, this is nonsense. Get a grip of reality and let go of that crappy sanctity of life bollocks.

//Now, the tagline of this article irks me a little, because they are basically saying that by spending trillions of dollars, we get 132 billion back in 9 years! Well, I dunno about that.//

You couldn’t even figure that out….jeez…
What that says is that within the next 10 years we cut $132 billion in our federal budget because we are spending less on our health care system and are distributing money better instead of wasting it. We get far more than $132 billion back from the system.

//I also conceded that there is a problem, but the fed gov isn't fixing it the right way...( I prefer more regulations of private industry than the creation of a public sector.)//

Which is exactly like putting it into the hands of the government, only in a private sector they can make decisions that will cause more problems such as monopolization, cost raising, and restrictions. With the Fed Gov. in charge, with the distribution of powers that it has and the spanning political ideologies, decisions are made on the basis of the representatives of the people. It is constantly being shuffled with elections and administrations.
I don’t have much faith in the government, however a system like you’re proposing is worse.

//That means they're not allowed here, that means our tax money shouldn't cover them. In other words, i would rather have a fellow American citizen get that surgery or liver transplant first before an illegal does. Go ahead, tell me I'm a stupid conservative for wanting that.//

You’re a selfish ignorant bigoted bitch is what you are showing here. The census post that I gave you factors in only people counted by the census. Your argument is void and your refusal to understand the reasons why people would come to this country is sickening.
The new health care system functions on a need based flow of operations. Whoever needs something will get it as soon as they can in the queue. Not bein forced to wait because they don’t have enough money.
Your argument bases on you not wanting to pay taxes. Tough. Get over it. You might as well argue that funding food stamps isn’t necessary by pointing at the people that come into my store and buy nothing but junk food and use their food stamp card. You’re being overly selective and ignorant of the basis of the system.

//Well, I like capitalism, so naturally I'm going to be "selfish". I don't like Bush and his administration, and I don't like Republicans. Don't think I support them or w/e.//

You’ve repeatedly in the past sided with Republican views, however you are a libertarian…which is much worse. What makes you even worse is the fact that you don’t understand even these basic systems that you’re trying to argue from a libertarian view for.

//I guess all in all, I'm very distrustful of this giant leap that Congress wants to take. In the years to follow, we will plunge into more debt with the HC now in place, while crossing our fingers that the 1.4 trillion will come back...I mean...it's not 100% sure right?
Also, I have a feeling we would be left with a worse debt, but by then the generation of HC-loving liberals have come and gone, so not their problem.//

You’re teetering on insanity right now. Health care systems better than the one that we are implementing with current legislation have been used around the world successfully for decades now. We need to do it now before we push ourselves further into debt with this system. Hopefully within the next few years, people will come to understand the policies of this legislation and we won’t have ignorant saps like you.
And way to go…you didn’t so much as TOUCH the point I made about the Medicare Act of 2003. You might want to look that up.

//I happen to know that you'll probably say: "Gosh Christine, your such an ignorant conservative, and everything you said was a bunch of non-debatable mush that I'm not going to even answer because it will be like arguing with a dining table (which Stephen colbert has done//

Seriously Christine….[Censored Word] off. You haven’t read and understood what I’ve posted and yet you still choose to attempt generalizing to cover your ass. You are an imbecile.

//For now, I say funding a war is different because the leaders of this country, congress and all, have decided to, for example, go to war against Al-Queda because they threaten our nation and our lives. They deemed in necessary to fight terrorism because of incidents such as 9/11. That being said, I know where you are coming from. Many have realized that this war has turned into a political scheme to get more oil, "install a democratic system in iraq" (ya right), and so on. That is why many are not happy about funding that. I understand.

Regardless, I think funding a war for the sake of our national security is a hell of alot different from funding the abortion of a fetus. Was the fetus a threat to our nation? I don't think so. Now funding abortions that a mother can't afford when she got raped or is about to die because of the fetus hurting her, that's another story. But I view abortions as an "easy way out" that people can now use, and pretty much what's happening is way too much out-of-wedlock sex (but hey! we have different opinions...you want sex? go ahead. just use a freakin condom.) To put it simply: my very own opinion is that abortion is murder. Don't agree? That's fine. But YOU had sex, pay for YOUR own abortion.//

The trillions we have spent on the war that was unnecessary and is now overdrawn and such a mess that we can’t even install a system over there

vs.

The retaining of billions of dollars through a health care system that just might cover women who choose to have abortions

Do you see why we don’t take this argument seriously?
Fetuses during the normal period of abortion are pretty much a lump of cells. You might as well scrape the dead skin off your hands and you’ll have pretty much the amount of cells you’ll lose. Most of them don’t even make it past menstruation as they haven’t triggered the right hormone reactions…it’s practically the same as regular menstruation. Not every ovum and sperm needs a name.
It’s not an easy way out.
Marriage is an unnatural institution and pre-marital sex is only condemned by idiots who were raised by zealots.
Hilarious that you should mention wearing a condom since you said earlier that you’re a Catholic.
Your beliefs mean nothing to the rest of the world. Sorry to burst your bubble, but they don’t. As a secular democracy, any influence by religious ideologies is null and void. Abortions can be argued from any side, but having the option for them is better than them going to a back alley with a coat hanger. Don’t you think? Wouldn’t you rather have something done properly than having a woman damaging herself over it?
If they want to do it, they’ll find some way to do it. It’s not pleasant, but it’s reality. It’s not dressed up like your beliefs or your interpretation of what should be done because in comparison to those that are in charge, you have shown profound ignorance of even the most rudimentary systems.

//I guess if Luke says it's a "fact," it must be. However, having traveled through Alabama, Georgia and Florida last summer, I can safely say Texas is not quite so myopic as he contends (though I'd admit we're in the upper 15%).//

The entire south is pretty damn bad. I’m well aware. However, I single Texas out because they are the most loud and boisterous out of them and they have the largest political power. I live I Pennsyltucky….I know the stupidity of rednecks from the south as everyone up here wants to be one. I’m surrounded by people who have thought processes along the same lines as Bush and McLeroy. Myopic people are dangerous.

//As a side note, I would also offer that 90% of the people from my state could whip Luke's a$$ handily. //

I’d doubt that on the basis of strength that it‘d be 90%….however to be fair, 90% of the people from your state couldn’t spell half the words I used in this post.

[BritainKennedy]

//I know where you are coming from. Many have realized that this war has turned into a political scheme to get more oil, "install a democratic system in iraq" (ya right), and so on. That is why many are not happy about funding that. I understand.//

What in the hell do you mean you get where I'm coming from? When have I stated whether I do or do not support the "war"? That wasn't the question. It was simply a statement as to how retarded your argument against witholding funding from a government program because of something you don't believe in is.

//Regardless, I think funding a war for the sake of our national security is a hell of alot different from funding the abortion of a fetus. Was the fetus a threat to our nation? I don't think so. Now funding abortions that a mother can't afford when she got raped or is about to die because of the fetus hurting her, that's another story. But I view abortions as an "easy way out" that people can now use, and pretty much what's happening is way too much out-of-wedlock sex (but hey! we have different opinions...you want sex? go ahead. just use a freakin condom.) To put it simply: my very own opinion is that abortion is murder. Don't agree? That's fine. But YOU had sex, pay for YOUR own abortion.//

Once again, look at the scale of these two:
Trillions of dollars for a war, (not going to get into the lives lost, kind of turns your sanctity of life argument against abortion)

or

The $500 or so dollars for eliminating a clump of cells you'll never hear about.

As Luke said, marriage is a complete man-made, "unnatural" (god I hate calling things unnatural, because everything is natural to an extent) event, and "out-of-wedlock sex" is only looked down upon by pious assholes such as yourself. Also, as Luke said, funny you mention that we should wear condoms, yet claim to be Catholic. Hypocrite? I suppose I shouldn't expect anything else.

//I really hate debating abortions because I'm part of a small minority of catholics who don't believe in em...so...sorry if it offends you...//

What an easy way out, huh?

//well, to be honest, it's a lost battle. The majority of america is liberal, so all I'm saying is its moot, we can't change each others opinions.//

When an opinion is as intellectually bankrupt and lacking any sort of defense as yours, then it needs to be changed. End of story.

//Like this is the only one I won't bend on- abortion's different. Now for other issues such as war, gay marriage, gun control, etc, that can be worked with. But yeah I feel like I'm in the minority of America saying that abortions are wrong//

How dare you say you're willing to sway on those other issues. You don't even attempt to look at your opponents arguments, much less try to create something that even resembles an intelligent response to anything. Just saying "yeah, I feel they're wrong" is not adequate defense to your opinion.

//I guess if Luke says it's a "fact," it must be. However, having traveled through Alabama, Georgia and Florida last summer, I can safely say Texas is not quite so myopic as he contends (though I'd admit we're in the upper 15%). As a side note, I would also offer that 90% of the people from my state could whip Luke's a$$ handily.//

How about you legitimately think about something before you post. His quote was
"the fact that Texas is controlled by people who represent that myopic and dangerous charismatic religious figure that the rest of the world loathes the U.S. for."

Take your head out of your ass long enough to look around the political leaders of your state and tell me again that this isn't true. Texas, Alabama, and Florida... Three of the most southern, biggoted, racist, states in the United States, and you're using them for comparison? Please, get an iota of intelligence and think before you post.

On a double side note, I could "whip" 99% of your populations ass. As true as this is, how is it relevant?

//I can't prove this, but I would say a majority of Americans are actually moderate. Speaking only for myself, I tilt left on most issues, but right on some (and not extremely far either way). The problem with both sides of the political spectrum is not only how far they lean, but how loud they yowl. I think most of us want some common sense answers to America's problems and, as we all know, extremism is rarely, if ever, a common sense approach.//

America is highly "liberal" to most people's standards. They're just afraid to "yowl". Yes, extremism, (depending on how you define it), is typically the wrong approach from either end of the spectrum. However, I believe it is justified when speaking out against atrocities. As Luke said, myopic people are dangerous.

Also, your explanation of the healthcare system was extremely watered down


P.S. Why are you so damn anal about pointing out inconsistencies Luke? I'm sick of getting sloppy seconds.

[christine]

Okay Luke...take a chill pill, because first of all your post was far too long for me to read during the week and second of all I think your a little upset by the simplicity of my posts, which is why you twist everything I say, tell me I don't know anything and then say "You’re a selfish ignorant bigoted bitch". Which is, by the way, at the exact point where I stopped reading your really long text.

I love talking to you because I like to get an idea of what the other side argues, but uhhh buddy? You've taken it a little far there. Again, love your arguments, hate your insults which in fact you use too often to "cover" YOUR ass, believe it or not.

In addition to that, Britain is far better at arguing your same points and pointing out my mistakes. So I'll thank Britain for that.

My statement? well, believe or not, we can have universal healthcare without abortions, and thats how I'd like it...
Believe it or not also, those "big blob of cells" that apparently take nearly no money to cover were actually us once, as in well, humans gotta come from something. That's why the "stupid ignorant bitchy little catholics" think that the "big blob of cells" are actually a form of life. So I"m not "generalizing to cover my ass". I'm just not going to cover this anymore.

//How dare you say you're willing to sway on those other issues. You don't even attempt to look at your opponents arguments, much less try to create something that even resembles an intelligent response to anything. Just saying "yeah, I feel they're wrong" is not adequate defense to your opinion.//

Again Britain, touche', on the second reposting of my response, i felt like I tried to be adequate, but your right it doesnt sound as intellectual as ya'll, so maybe next time.

Now that Lehman dude is my kinda guy. Simple, logical, explains things easier. But, whatever.

So uhh Luke, I guess you'd rather have someone else answer ur posts.....

[BritainKennedy]

//In addition to that, Britain is far better at arguing your same points and pointing out my mistakes. So I'll thank Britain for that. //

No, I'm not.

[Mirnus]

//Okay Luke...take a chill pill, because first of all your post was far too long for me to read during the week//

Bollocks. You could read it in 5 minutes. I wrote that entire reply in less than 40 minutes as I was getting ready for work.

//and second of all I think your a little upset by the simplicity of my posts, which is why you twist everything I say, tell me I don't know anything and then say "You’re a selfish ignorant bigoted bitch". Which is, by the way, at the exact point where I stopped reading your really long text. //

I’m not upset with the simplicity. I’m upset with the fact that you’re putting yourself off as if you have the knowledge and data to substantiate yourself when you can’t even argue a coherent point without throwing fallacies out.
If you can’t see through the insults I give you, which are not ad hominem attacks mind you, then you shouldn’t be on here. If you’re that thin skinned that a response to your post where somebody says anything detrimental to you, you are incapable of reading then I suggest you toughen up or prepare for when the real world hits you in the face. Life isn’t so pretty when you’re staring down reality…not your boxed in little world where you are sheltered by that which you cling to.
I don’t twist what you say. I respond to it as it comes across. You’re quote mining, creating non-sequitors, strawmanning me, and creating personal preference arguments where you don’t have to substantiate your claims. If I was twisting what you were saying, I’d be guilty of fallacies myself and I have yet to allow myself to do that here. Correct yourself and my interpretation or stop whining and complaining without an argument to back yourself up.

//I love talking to you because I like to get an idea of what the other side argues, but uhhh buddy? You've taken it a little far there. Again, love your arguments, hate your insults which in fact you use too often to "cover" YOUR ass, believe it or not.//

Read my posts. I substantiate what I say. I do not need insults to back myself up. And quite honestly, you ignoring what I’ve posted simply because you’re too emotionally weak to deal with the fact that I despise what you represent and the arguments of incredulous greed that you give in place of a real argument is more of an insult to my intelligence than any name could ever be to you.
I respond the way I do because that’s how I talk in real life. I am not going to sugar coat it for somebody who can’t take small insults. Go back, read my posts, and stop pretending as if your statements mean anything in the face of a real argument. You didn’t respond to anything I said other than your attachment to abortion.
And my perception is my own and is not to be taken as a generalization of all people that are within the wide spectrum that I belong to. Don’t generalize…that’s worse.

//In addition to that, Britain is far better at arguing your same points and pointing out my mistakes. So I'll thank Britain for that.//

Oh really? Probably because you don’t read my posts, you ignoramus. This is evident in every reply you’ve made to either of us. Not saying anything bad towards Britain in this matter, but honestly I’m going more in depth.

//My statement? well, believe or not, we can have universal healthcare without abortions, and thats how I'd like it…//

So you are arguing from a position of personal preference and belief. If your entire argument is that you don’t like abortions, then I’d like you to think for 10 bloody seconds about how much funding from the entire health care budget goes into providing abortion services. Giving those situations where a person is inconvenienced to the point where having a baby would be a burden on them as well as create an unstable home for the child where they will not be raised properly or is undesirable for them to have in any other situation, you honestly think that abortion is even a bat of an eyelash for health care reform? Pull your head out of your ass, for crying out loud.

//Believe it or not also, those "big blob of cells" that apparently take nearly no money to cover were actually us once, as in well, humans gotta come from something.//

And your point? Are you forgetting what I was saying about fertility rates, costs, and the irrelevant idea of the sanctity of life?
Here, let me put it into perspective for you with Spontaneous Abortions.

http://www.americanpregnancy.org/pregna ... riage.html

“What are the chances of having a Miscarriage?
For women in childbearing years, the chances of having a miscarriage can range from 10-25%, and in most healthy women the average is about a 15-20% chance.
-An increase in maternal age affects the chances of miscarriage
-Women under the age of 35 yrs old have about a 15% chance of miscarriage
-Women who are 35-45 yrs old have a 20-35% chance of miscarriage
-Women over the age of 45 can have up to a 50% chance of miscarriage
-A woman who has had a previous miscarriage has a 25% chance of having another (only a slightly elevated risk than for someone who has not had a previous miscarriage)”

And:

“Why do miscarriages occur?
The reason for miscarriage is varied, and most often the cause cannot be identified. During the first trimester, the most common cause of miscarriage is chromosomal abnormality - meaning that something is not correct with the baby's chromosomes. Most chromosomal abnormalities are the cause of a faulty egg or sperm cell, or are due to a problem at the time that the zygote went through the division process. Other causes for miscarriage include (but are not limited to):
-Hormonal problems, infections or maternal health problems
-Lifestyle (i.e. smoking, drug use, malnutrition, excessive caffeine and exposure to -radiation or toxic substances)
-Implantation of the egg into the uterine lining does not occur properly
-Maternal age
-Maternal trauma
Factors that are not proven to cause miscarriage are sex, working outside the home (unless in a harmful environment) or moderate exercise.”

Most abortions happen by nature. Even so, I’ll quote a friend of mine on the subject.
“The mortality rate of everyone is eventually 100%”

//That's why the "stupid ignorant bitchy little catholics" think that the "big blob of cells" are actually a form of life. So I"m not "generalizing to cover my ass". I'm just not going to cover this anymore.//

And you quote mined that too. When I said that, there was nothing around it even remotely concerning what you’re complaining about.
If you think it’s life, I’m sure that what I posted above will make you go into another fit of whining about perspective. If you want to argue about the sanctity of life, then get past that first instead of crying out about your personal preference.
Honestly, if your entire argument is that you don’t like abortion, then relay that back to other people who don’t think that other operations should be done. Think about how others view the death penalty and how politicized that is. You’re picking and choosing for your own ideals. Executions cost millions of dollars after all the paperwork is done. Abortions don’t, and quite frankly it’s much better to have those women go to a doctor instead of doing it themselves. Desperation causes some severe reactions.
Abortion is but a mote of dust on the stage of health care. People argue about it based on their personal beliefs instead of the beliefs of the person who is getting one. It’s none of your damned business what somebody else does with their body, and putting your religious views in front of it makes it no more meaningful to the multicultural society of this secular democracy. The opportunity being available for women and giving them the freedom of choice instead of being held back by your narrow view is much better in any situation.
Argue that and don’t resort to emotional appeals and incredulity.
Also, I'd like to see what you have to say about other organisms that we kill since you're so keen on sanctity of zygotes. Since you are so diehard in defending the unborn mass of cells that is nearly indistinguishable for the first trimester from most recent evolutionary relatives (going back to reptiles even in embryonic development...so over 200 million years of evolutionary history. See: embryological physiological morphology), how do you view the sanctity of all other life forms? What about all of the bacteria that you kill with cleaning? They're alive. Plants...animals...we're all made of the same things...so where does this fascination with preserving it come from to the point where we can't do something so simple as that which happens naturally so often?
I'm waiting.

//Again Britain, touche', on the second reposting of my response, i felt like I tried to be adequate, but your right it doesnt sound as intellectual as ya'll, so maybe next time.//

Nothing you’ve posted is intellectual to any degree. Try again.

//Now that Lehman dude is my kinda guy. Simple, logical, explains things easier. But, whatever.//

Metaphors are easier to understand than blunt facts? Are you high or something?

//So uhh Luke, I guess you'd rather have someone else answer ur posts..…//

I’d rather somebody capable of debating without being so fallacious.

Next time, make this an actual challenge.

[Lehman]

The entire south is pretty damn bad. I’m well aware. However, I single Texas out because they are the most loud and boisterous out of them and they have the largest political power. I live I Pennsyltucky….I know the stupidity of rednecks from the south as everyone up here wants to be one. I’m surrounded by people who have thought processes along the same lines as Bush and McLeroy. Myopic people are dangerous.

Yeah, we're pretty loud. However, you're tossing out a sweeping generalization up there, and you know it. I can only apologize for our state producing Bush. However, you can blame the whole country for electing him -- twice.

I’d doubt that on the basis of strength that it‘d be 90%….however to be fair, 90% of the people from your state couldn’t spell half the words I used in this post.

Okay, well, then let's reduce the number to 75% on both sides.

[Lehman]

I should point out here that I stole the analogies I used about health care from an NPR program (the one about the middleman) and a great article over a free market solution conerning health care (the one about car insurance). There are certainly more facts and figures to offer, but I thought these were an excellent way to frame the reform side of the issue. Good to know someone else thought so, too.

[BritainKennedy]

However, you can blame the whole country for electing him -- twice.

I laughed at that =